FRIENDS OF THE CENTAURE SOCIETY

5.10 Reflections on Centaure Conversions and the Open Top

Chapter 5 – Centaure Conversions the Next Level of the Evolution?

5.10 Reflections on Centaure Conversions and the Open Top

 

 

1-FIL06905-001

 

 

 

5.10

 

5.10.1

 

 

 

5.10.2

5.10.2.1

 

5.10.2.2

 

5.10.2.3

 

5.10.2.4

 

5.10.3

 

 

5.10.4

5.10.5

 

 

Reflections on Centaure Conversions and the Open Top

The Gold Standard: How Do Measurements of Modern Colt 1860 Cap & Ballers or their Conversions Compare to Originals?

Working Assumptions

Original Colt 1860 Armies, Re-Issues and Replicas

Original and Modern Colt 1860 Army Thuer Conversions

Original and Modern Colt 1860 Army Richards Conversions

Original and Modern Colt 1860 Army Richards-Mason Conversions

Caveat Regarding Modern Breechloading Colt 1860 Army Conversions

Conclusions

Yes, we can – But Do we Want?

 

 

5.10.1

The Gold Standard: How Do Measurements of Modern Colt 1860 Cap & Ballers or their Conversions Compare to Originals?

 

Now is the time to ask the important questions about the dimensional accuracy of the reproductions. Which ones are close to the benchmark, to that gold standard set by the original Colt Armies from yesteryear? Are our modern Colt 1860 Armys manufactured by the replica industry, or custom-built conversions, within the ranges of their 19th century predecessors as assessed by a number of the FRiends Of the Centaure Society (FROCS) community from around the globe? Or, as provided by R. Bruce McDowell in his sought after conversion bible from 1997 titled A STUDY OF COLT CONVERSIONS AND OTHER PERCUSSION REVOLVERS? What is the impact of production tolerances back then and today?

To answer these questions samples of

# Colt 1860 Army pattern percussion revolvers: Reference original Colt 1860 Army and

# Colt 1860 Army pattern conversions: Reference original Thuer, Richards, Richards-Mason conversions were measured in a standardized manner with digital calipers. This task was accomplished within a few weeks thanks to the international network of the FROCS community. These three parameters or key dimensions were considered important and were compared:

# Diameter front of cylinder

# Diameter rebate of cylinder

# Overall height of barrel lug

The sample of the modern Colt 1860 Army percussion revolvers comprised these popular brands and makers, respectively:

  • Centaure Civilian and Regular New Model Armies (RNMAs) of production 1960 through 1972
  • 2nd generation Colt 1860 Army
  • 3rd generation Colt 1860 Army
  • Army san Paolo (ASP)/Euroarms
  • Pietta
  • Uberti

 

Their modern Colt 1860 Army pattern conversions included custom built conversions using project revolvers of different makers, and the factory-made variants available from Uberti in Italy:

  • Dave Anderson USPFA Richards
  • John E. Gren 2nd gen Colt Richards
  • Kenny Howell 2nd gen Colt Richards
  • Karl Nedbal Centaure Thuer, Richards, Richards-Mason
  • Karl Nedbal Uberti Thuer
  • R&D 2nd gen Colt Richards
  • Uberti Richards Transitional, Richards-Mason

 

5.10.2

Working Assumptions

 

A healthy human eye will note differences in size of ca. 0,5 mm/.02 in of comparable objects.

  • Deviations within these ranges are considered regular production tolerances (RPTs), or not significant.
  • Deviations smaller than RPTs are significant. They mean undersize, printed in bold face in the tables below
  • Deviations bigger than RPTs are significant, too. They are what we usually refer to as beefed-up or on steroids. Hence, they are printed in bold face type in the tables below, too.

The numbers in brackets like (3) in the Serial number column indicate the number of pistols per manufacturer measured. Numbers in that same column without brackets are serial numbers of individual guns, p in brackets like (p) indicates the year when a conversion artist completed a specific project.

In case more than one gun was available from a manufacturer, measurements were averaged, taking production tolerances into account. Ranges of the measurements are provided as appropriate.

Readings are presented in millimeters (mm) and inches (inch) printed in black or white/red bold type.

 

5.10.2.1

Original Colt 1860 Armies, Re-Issues and Replicas

 

This Colt 1860 Army data in below table indicates that most of the three key dimensions of modern Colt 1860 Army pattern percussion revolvers are within RPTs. But bear in mind only three (3) originals were available for reference. If that is OK one should also note the very close tolerances of these 19th century Colts!

 

Colt 1860 Army

Facts & Figures

mm/inch

Serial number

Diameter

cylinder front

Diameter

cylinder rebate

Height

Barrel lug

Originals*

average (3)

range

41,20/1.622

41,15-41,23/1.621-1.623

38,88/1.531

38,75-38,96/1.526-1.534

47,60/1.874

47,42-47,92/1.883-1.887

Centaure

average (9)

range

40,89/1.609

40,67-41,00/1.601-1.614

38,70/1.524

38,23-38,90/1.505-1.531

47,66/1.876

47,43-47-83/1.867-1,883

Colt 2nd gen.

average (12)

range

40,79/1.606

40,71-40,88/1.602-1.610

38,92/1.532

38,76-39,15/1.526-1.541

47,19/1.858

46,46-47,54/1.829-1.872

Colt 3rd gen.

#217562

40,75/1.608

39,15/1.541

46,95/1.848

ASP/Euroarms

#30478

40,77/1.605

38,89/1.531

48,13/1.895

Pietta

average (3)

range

40,48/1.594

40,44-40,51/1.592-1.595

38,90/1.531

38,79-38,99/1.527-1.535

47,36/1.864

47,04-47,63/1.852-1.875

Uberti

average (4)

range

41,00/1.614

40,49-41,91/1.594-1.650

39,15/1.541

38,86-39,67/1.530-1.562

47,40/1.866

46,99-47,72/1.850-1.879

*Measurements of originals amended by McDowell data

 

A few selective comments regarding brands or manufacturers are available.

  • Centaures: Diameters of the front and rebate of the cylinders are below RPTs.
  • Colt 2nd generations: Height of barrel lug ranges are below RPTs. Only 4-screw frame models are regularly available.
  • Colt 3rd generation: Height of barrel lug is below RPTs. Only 4-screw frame models are regularly available.
  • ASP/Euroarms: Height of barrel lug is above RPTs. All of this brand’s 1860 Armies were fitted with backstraps made of brass only.
  • Pietta: Diameters of the front of the cylinders are below RPTs.
  • Uberti: Diameters of front of the cylinders and the height of the barrel lug ranges are below, the diameters of the rebate of the cylinder ranges are above RPTs.

D:\FAP Colt 1860 Army\1-3e94a0b88714f6a3dde6d7c119309a39.jpg

5.10.2.1_1 Pietta made Colt 1860 Army: Note 4-screw frame and typical bell-shape grip contour

 

5.10.2.2

Original and Modern Colt 1860 Army Thuer Conversions

 

Only a small sample of four (4) Thuers was available for measurements, namely two (2) 19th century original Colts and two (2) Nedbal conversions (table below). Therefore, only a few careful comments seem to be appropriate:

Original Colts: The height of the barrel lug of the two (2) original Colts is smaller than that of their percussion brothers presented in the table above, and only just within their respective RPTs. The rebate diameter of the cylinders is above RPTs if compared to the respective percussion originals. This might be an indication that this conversion cylinder was purposely strengthened for the Thuer back then and it was not a converted percussion cylinder.

Nedbal conversions: The measurements of the two (2) Nedbal conversions are almost identical although project guns of different makers were altered namely a 1968 manufactured Centaure from Fabriques d‘Armes Unies de Liège (F.A.U.L.) and a Uberti made Colt 1860 of 1972 production. Regarding their cylinders this was to be expected because they were copied from the same original in the Nedbal collection. The height of barrel lug of the two Nedbal conversions is above RPTs of Colt Thuers but within reference C&B originals!

You find the full story on the Centaure made Thuer in chapter 5.3. Note a few additional details in the table:

 

Colt 1860 Army

Thuer

Facts & Figures

mm/inch

Serial number

Diameter

cylinder front

Diameter

cylinder rebate

Height

Barrel lug

Originals

average (2)

41,21/1.622

39,16/1.542

47,28/1.863

Nedbal Centaure

#7266

40,67/1.602

38,77/1.527

47,91/1.886

Nedbal Uberti

#14289

40,69/1.602

38,62/1.520

48,03/1.891

 

D:\Nedbal-Uberti Colt 1860 Thuer Conversion .44 Thuer\1-P1030854.JPG

5.10.2.2_1 Nedbal 1972 manufactured Uberti Colt 1860 Army #A14289 with 4-screw frame ltered to Thuer conversion

 

Italy’s Uberti factory considered regular production of Colt 1860 Army Thuer conversion front stuffers around the turn of the last century. The plan was to launch the conversion. But, also a conversion kit to provide owners of Uberti 1860 cap & ballers with the option to fabricate and shoot their own self-made Thuer cartridges by use of the loading tool. Below is a picture from a period Uberti catalogue of one of their Thuer conversion kit prototypes. Unfortunately, the project has been left on the shelf.

 

D:\Uberti Colt 1860 Army Thuer conversion\1-thuer.jpg

5.10.2.2_2 Uberti prototype of their Colt 1860 Army Thuer conversion kit with loading tool, Thuer cases, bullet mould, conversion cylinder and ring: Note 4-screw frame project pistol

 

5.10.2.3

Original and Modern Colt 1860 Army Richards Conversions

 

We are comforted that measurements of the four (4) originals from the 1870s are within RPTs, like those of their C&B brothers. The Dave Anderson/AFA, Nedbal Centaure and Howell 2nd gen. Colt conversions are within RPTs, too. Other Nedbal Richards using Uberti made cap & ballers were not available for measurements.

The Gren and R&D 2nd gen. Colts are off in one dimension only.

The Uberti Richards Transitional aka RII – Uberti does not make an RI – is manufactured as a cartridge gun from the outset. Hence, it is pretty much beefed-up!

Please, note the details regarding these significant deviations from the RPTs in below table.

 

Colt 1860 Army Richards

Facts & Figures

mm/inch

Serial number

Diameter

cylinder front

Diameter

cylinder rebate

Height

Barrel lug

Originals

average (4)

range

41,24/1.624

41,21-41,30/1.622-1.626

39,92/1.572

39,89-39,99/1.571-1.574

47,69/1.877

47,4747,90/1.869-1.886

AFA USPFA

1992 (p)*

41,77/1.605

39,57/1.558

47,37/1.865

Gren Colt 2nd gen.

average (2)

range

40,87/1.609

40,78-40,95/1.605-1.612

38,85/1.529

38,84-38,85/1.529-1.529

47,42/1.867

47,36-47,48/1.864-1.869

Howell Colt 2nd

 gen.

1996 (p)*

40,77/1.605

39,65/1.561

47,35/1.864

Nedbal Centaure

#4079

41,61/1.638

40,06/1.577

47,26/1.861

R&D Colt 2nd gen.

1979 (p)*

 

40,74/1.605

39,45/1.554

47,40/1.866

Uberti RII

average (3)

range

42,49/1.673

42,44-42,55/1.671-1.675

41,31/1.626

41,04-41,45/1.616-1.632

48,50/1.909

48,40-48,56/1.906-1.912

*(p): year of custom conversion

 

Here are some further specific comments regarding the measurements, additional notes and pictures of rare (and not so rare) modern Richards (RI and RII) custom and factory conversions. This data seems to indicate that the U.S. conversion artists prefer the 2nd generation Colt 1860 Armies as project guns for their tasks.

  • At gunmaker’s Dave Anderson’s AFA Richards conversion of a USPFA fabricated project gun is within ranges of originals. However, the conversion cylinder is of the straight variety and the water table lacks the typical step. These features are also known from Italy’s Armi san Marco (ASM) produced Richards conversion. Rumour has it that there was some collaboration regarding conversions between Anderson and ASM.
  • John E. Gren 2nd generation Colt 1860 diameters of the rebates of the conversion cylinders are below RPTs.
  • R&D 2nd generation used Colt diameter of the front segment of the conversion cylinder is below RPTs.
  • The Uberti manufactured Colt 1860 Army Richards II conversions are way above RPTs in all three (3) measurements!

 

D:\AFA Colt 1860 Army Richards Conversion\1-IMG_2194.jpg

5.10.2.3_1 Anderson’s AFA custom made Richards I conversion using a USPFA production Colt 1860 Army for the project: 3-screw frames; not rebated straight cylinder, forward segment of water table not lowered

 

D:\Gren 2nd Gen Colt 1860 Army Richards Conversions #208554 + 204606_1\1-1860 Armies - John Gren Conversions.jpg

5.10.2.3_2 Conversion artist John E. Gren used 2nd gen. Colt 1860 Armies for this pair of Richards I conversions with 4-screw frames

 

D:\Nedbal-Uberti Colt 1860 Army R1 .44 Spez\1-P1030846-001.JPG

5.10.2.3_3 Nedbal custom converted Richards I using Uberti Colt 1860 Army C&B pistol with  4-screw frame as project gun

 

D:\Uberti Colt 1860 Army (R1)\1-P1020627.JPG

5.10.2.3_4 Nedbal transformed a pair of Uberti factory beefed-up Richards II fitted with 3-screw frames to Richards I